CARD6: Turley vs RKO93 (UD Title Match)

[Goldenboy79]

UD Title

Turley vs RKO93

Is Vince Mcmahon a creative genius or an Ideas thief?

Please confirm your choices, and the user who chooses first will start the debate

[RKO93]

Seeing as Turley is deciding to NOT post first, I guess I have to. Smart strategy, Turley...

I'll go with a creative genius.

[Turley]

My plan is working.....

Good luck Sir

[Turley]

RKO has requested some extra time as he has exams or work or something.

I am 100% fine with this...

[RKO93]

Extra time is greatly appreciated. My time management right now is pretty awful, but I'll try to get it in soon.

[RKO93]

Is Vince McMahon a creative genius or an idea's thief?

That is the question at hand. After a rather fair amount of contemplating, I have decided that Vince McMahon is a creative genius.

Vince McMahon has been a member of WWF/E for nearly 40 years. His name, face, voice, and walk are synonymous with not only this federation, but wrestling as a whole. He has provided wrestling with more than ANYBODY else ever has, creating mega-stars, making it known on a global scale, and just introducing so many different prospects for wrestling itself.

Only a creative genius can take a moderately territorial company and turn it into a prominent, major, mainstream entity that has been raking in large bundles of cash and talent for a good 25-30 years constantly. Only a creative genius can keep the same guys in the Main Event scene and yet, still profit greatly without any major decline in viewership. Only a creative genius can make successful ventures into multiple different kinds of entertainment and business while still maintaining the popularity of his original entity.

Let's see...who is Vincent Kennedy McMahon exactly? Hmm...he's a former 2x World Champion...he's the Chairman of one of the most successful corporations in history...he was the innovator of the Rock N' Wrestling Connection (a very popular and successful business decision made by McMahon in the 80s)...he has gotten into the ring himself and actually managed to put on a show, even in his later days...he has been an accredited announcer and commentator...he has produced films...do you see a trend here? Vince McMahon just has too many accomplishments to list; only a creative genius can put together so much and still have so much life left in them.

Whether or not Vince McMahon is a creative genius is undisputable. However, the opposing option is not. An idea’s thief? So how is Vince McMahon an idea’s thief exactly? Was it stealing talent from the AWA? Buying out WCW and ECW, so that WWF/E had garnered a monopoly on the wrestling world? The rebirth of ECW in 2006? What was it that makes him an idea’s thief at all?

Everything that Vince does has had a reason and is his own creation. So he stole talent from the AWA? Well, that talent had the same potential in both AWA and WWF, so why was Vince McMahon the one that was able to bolster those talents into mega-stardom worldwide? Why was it that Vince McMahon was able to make names like Hulk Hogan and Sgt. Slaughter synonymous with wrestling as a whole, but the geniuses over at AWA HQ couldn’t? The answer is quite simple, actually…it’s because Vince McMahon is a CREATIVE GENIUS. Nobody has an eye for talent like him or the ability to tap into that talent and capitalize on it.

The WCW/ECW buy out? Vince McMahon learned something; if you have the money, then use it. WCW was crushing WWF and ECW was rising rapidly. Vince McMahon put a stop to both of them before any serious damage could be done. That was just genius. The creative part? Using the talent gained from these two companies in a huge, highly-anticipated “WCW/ECW vs. WWF” angle. This angle was over HUGE with the world’s biggest and greatest talents all going at it. Vince McMahon and WWF no longer had any competitors, but just in case new ones sprung up in the future, he used his newly attained entities to show everybody that WWF is the prominent wrestling brand. He showed the entire world that WWF was a force to be reckoned with. And look at the present-day crop of wrestling: TNA, ROH, CMLL, AAA, CZW, PWG, Dragon Gate, IWA, and even some NWA territories are still left out there…and NONE of them will ever reach the level that WWE is at. Vince McMahon ensured this after he buried the talent of WCW and ECW. Genius? Yes. Creative? Yes. Effective? You bet your ass.

So what else is there that can possibly quality Vince McMahon as an idea’s thief? After his countless years of entertaining us with his thousands of CREATIVE angles, segments, and feuds, his GENIUS for finding the greatest and most outstanding talents in wrestling and displaying them in his business, and cementing his status amongst the greatest figures in sports entertainment history…there is nothing in his history that he did that was not, in some nature, his own creation. His own spawn. His own idea.

So please, try to find fault in him and his illustrious career; all of the decisions that he has made, all of the talent that he has discovered or even stolen to mold them into stars. Try to find something that he did that was a complete rip-off of another’s work or “idea”. Because, quite simple…there isn’t one. Vince McMahon made his career off of being one thing and that is, good people…a creative genius.

Good luck, Turley.

[Turley]

That was a great argument that I have just read...

I would be in a LOT of trouble if the question was is Vince McMahon a genius. Luckily for me, the word creative is thrown in there.... Now I dont have a problem or issue with anything that RKO stated. He has basically rattled off fact after fact. Yet there was nothing in his post that made me stand up and think that Vince has an ounce of creativity in his body.

Lets take a look at the word creative. This word basically means " to produce an original concept". Now, where is the originality in Vince's work?

Originally Posted by RKO93

Vince McMahon has been a member of WWF/E for nearly 40 years. His name, face, voice, and walk are synonymous with not only this federation, but wrestling as a whole. He has provided wrestling with more than ANYBODY else ever has, creating mega-stars, making it known on a global scale, and just introducing so many different prospects for wrestling itself. .

This statement is correct. However it has nothing to do with creativity. Hogan is his number one success story. There is nothing documented that categorically states that Vince created this character. Heck, Hulk believes he came up with it. A wholesome role model for the young, a relative superhero.... this concept was around long before Vince McMahon was, so there is an extremely strong argument to be made, that Vince STOLE this idea. Be it from Hulk or from any tv show, comic book or essentially even any fairy tale.

Originally Posted by RKO93

Only a creative genius can take a moderately territorial company and turn it into a prominent, major, mainstream entity that has been raking in large bundles of cash and talent for a good 25-30 years constantly. ..

This is in no way thanks to his creativity. It has everything to do with his ruthless business techniques. Vince basically raped the wrestling landscape to get where he did. Bullying and monopolising is not creative.

Originally Posted by RKO93

Only a creative genius can keep the same guys in the Main Event scene and yet, still profit greatly without any major decline in viewership.

The same guys all the time? By definition this is uncreative. The claim that viewership hasnt declined is dubious and the whole statement has more to do with monopolising the market, again, ruthless businessman NOT creative genius...

Originally Posted by RKO93

Only a creative genius can make successful ventures into multiple different kinds of entertainment and business while still maintaining the popularity of his original entity.

XFL? Lets not go there....

The latest of Vinces ideas would probably be the movies that he has been making. These are by no means a success and also have no creativity attached to them. More than likely Vince STOLE this idea from the success he saw Dwayne Johnson achieve by getting involved in this career... Vince probably thought Dwayne owed him something after HIS CREATIVE team (not Vince) produced him some fame and fortune...

Originally Posted by RKO93

Let's see...who is Vincent Kennedy McMahon exactly? Hmm...he's a former 2x World Champion...he's the Chairman of one of the most successful corporations in history...he was the innovator of the Rock N' Wrestling Connection (a very popular and successful business decision made by McMahon in the 80s)...he has gotten into the ring himself and actually managed to put on a show, even in his later days...he has been an accredited announcer and commentator...he has produced films...do you see a trend here? Vince McMahon just has too many accomplishments to list; only a creative genius can put together so much and still have so much life left in them.

It doesnt seem to me that you have described a creative genius here.... You have described an egotist with a hell of a lot of money and a monopoly on a market. There is not an original thing there. Heck, his on screen character, perhaps his greatest achievment has parts stolen from Bischoff, Jack Tunney and Cornette and a host of other on screen authority figures that are there to bait the baby faces.

Originally Posted by RKO93

Whether or not Vince McMahon is a creative genius is undisputable. However, the opposing option is not. An idea’s thief? So how is Vince McMahon an idea’s thief exactly? Was it stealing talent from the AWA? Buying out WCW and ECW, so that WWF/E had garnered a monopoly on the wrestling world? The rebirth of ECW in 2006? What was it that makes him an idea’s thief at all?

Stealing talent was not stealing ideas, but there most certainly was nothing creative about it. Vince is an ideas thief because he regularly claims credit for other peoples ideas. Think about it for a second.... He has creative teams that nut out the majority of the gimmicks and angles. Vince then comes along and chooses the ones he wants. This process means that Vince is an ideas thief.

Katie Vick, who killed Vince, Vince vs God, incest.... Real quality VKM originals right there.

Vince didnt create Stone Cold Steve Austin..... he stole the idea from the fans. Austins semi shoot promo after the King of The Ring laid the foundation for this. Austin uttered the 3:16 phrase and the next night on raw the signs were everywhere in the crowd. Vince then stole this idea and turned it into arguably his biggest money earner.

DX was derived/stolen from the NWO concept.
Vince has repeatedly stolen the idea of USA are good, everyone else is bad...
The list really does go on and on.... Infact I have racked my brain and cant come up with one truly original idea that Vince himself created (not his staff, but Vince himself)

Originally Posted by RKO93

Everything that Vince does has had a reason and is his own creation. So he stole talent from the AWA? Well, that talent had the same potential in both AWA and WWF, so why was Vince McMahon the one that was able to bolster those talents into mega-stardom worldwide? Why was it that Vince McMahon was able to make names like Hulk Hogan and Sgt. Slaughter synonymous with wrestling as a whole, but the geniuses over at AWA HQ couldn’t? The answer is quite simple, actually…it’s because Vince McMahon is a CREATIVE GENIUS. Nobody has an eye for talent like him or the ability to tap into that talent and capitalize on it.

Slaughter and Hogan? Did Vince really create that war? No, he used it for his financial gain. Yet another completely stolen idea that took not an ounce of creativity....

Originally Posted by RKO93

The WCW/ECW buy out? Vince McMahon learned something; if you have the money, then use it. WCW was crushing WWF and ECW was rising rapidly. Vince McMahon put a stop to both of them before any serious damage could be done. That was just genius. The creative part? Using the talent gained from these two companies in a huge, highly-anticipated “WCW/ECW vs. WWF” angle. This angle was over HUGE with the world’s biggest and greatest talents all going at it. Vince McMahon and WWF no longer had any competitors, but just in case new ones sprung up in the future, he used his newly attained entities to show everybody that WWF is the prominent wrestling brand. He showed the entire world that WWF was a force to be reckoned with. And look at the present-day crop of wrestling: TNA, ROH, CMLL, AAA, CZW, PWG, Dragon Gate, IWA, and even some NWA territories are still left out there…and NONE of them will ever reach the level that WWE is at. Vince McMahon ensured this after he buried the talent of WCW and ECW. Genius? Yes. Creative? Yes. Effective? You bet your ass.

Wow... This angle was NOT over huge. Infact I am staggered you brought itup at all. The common consensus is that this is the most butchered angle in wrestling history. If Vince was a "creative" genius then he wouldnt have buried certain individuals due to personal grudges.... All this saga proved was that Vince had money and a a ruthless streak. Nothing creative and nothing to do with being an ideas thief.... Pretty irrelevant to the debate really.

Originally Posted by RKO93

So what else is there that can possibly quality Vince McMahon as an idea’s thief? After his countless years of entertaining us with his thousands of CREATIVE angles, segments, and feuds,

Entertaining us with a show written by other people. The fact that you are now giving Vince the credit for all these ideas shows that he is an ideas thief. There is never any recognition or credits at the end of the show for the WRITERS, He pays a lot of money for other people to come up with these ideas. It is absurd that he should then be labelled a creative genius.

If someone asks me to fix their toilet, then I pay someone else to do it..... am I a good plumber? No, I am in charge of a good plumber. If I allow people to think that I did the work myself, then I am a thief.... This applies directly to Vince McMahon....

[Goldenboy79]

Originally Posted by RKO93

Seeing as Turley is deciding to NOT post first, I guess I have to. Smart strategy, Turley...

I'll go with a creative genius.

Thats why we do it this way, most people would want to have the final say in a debate... so the person who has has to go first gets first choice of topic.

[RKO93]

Originally Posted by Turley

That was a great argument that I have just read...

I would be in a LOT of trouble if the question was is Vince McMahon a genius. Luckily for me, the word creative is thrown in there.... Now I dont have a problem or issue with anything that RKO stated. He has basically rattled off fact after fact. Yet there was nothing in his post that made me stand up and think that Vince has an ounce of creativity in his body.

Lets take a look at the word creative. This word basically means " to produce an original concept". Now, where is the originality in Vince's work?

Haha. Well, even though this is a wrestling forum and everybody probably knows who Vince McMahon is, a good debate should allow some insight on the showcased aspect. So “rattling off fact after fact” is just something to hype up the upcoming genius of mine. =)

Anyways…

Originally Posted by Turley

This statement is correct. However it has nothing to do with creativity. Hogan is his number one success story. There is nothing documented that categorically states that Vince created this character. Heck, Hulk believes he came up with it. A wholesome role model for the young, a relative superhero.... this concept was around long before Vince McMahon was, so there is an extremely strong argument to be made, that Vince STOLE this idea. Be it from Hulk or from any tv show, comic book or essentially even any fairy tale.

Whether it was Vince McMahon or Terry Bollea that created the “Hulk Hogan” persona and assigned it to Bollea, how did Terry Bollea become huge? Sure, a good gimmick and being over is one thing, but capitalizing on that momentum is another. Vince McMahon capitalized on that momentum. Terry Bollea did not book himself. Terry Bollea did not set up feuds and get pushed to the moon simply because he wanted to be. Vince McMahon and his bookers (hired by Vince McMahon) that made Terry Bollea huge. So even if Terry Bollea DID come up with the “Hulk Hogan” gimmick, it was Vince McMahon that aggrandized it. Sure, Terry Bollea was also a large helping in force in his uprising…but his chance to shine, his transfer from AWA to WWF, his superstardom…all are a result of Vince McMahon. Vince McMahon and his genius…his genius for creating superstars and hiring the quintessential crew to scout and boost talents…oh wait…did I just use the word creating? That’s awfully close to the word “creative”…perhaps it’s a sign? I think so.

Originally Posted by Turley

This is in no way thanks to his creativity. It has everything to do with his ruthless business techniques. Vince basically raped the wrestling landscape to get where he did. Bullying and monopolising is not creative.

Yes, he did “rape” the wrestling landscape…but he didn’t just invade everything and eliminate everything, which he probably could have done. Now THAT would’ve been ruthless business techniques. He knew exactly who to get from exactly what promotions to get them from. And once he stole (at least the closest thing he has to “stealing” in his career, anyways) the talent from those promotions, he utilized them to the fullest. The genius was garnering that talent. The creativity was using that talent to its fullest. Hulk Hogan, Sgt. Slaughter, and the rest of the “stolen” talent all became megastars for the most part. Some are mentioned amongst the greatest of all time. And why is that, exactly? Vince McMahon. Vince McMahon and his keen eye for talent and staff. To say that his hard work and daring endeavors was just “bullying and monopolizing” (probably seen as this to the untrained eye) is an injustice, because what Vince McMahon did to the entire wrestling federation as a result of this movement is far, FAR greater than you are giving credit for. But that will be explained more later in this argument.

Originally Posted by Turley

The same guys all the time? By definition this is uncreative. The claim that viewership hasnt declined is dubious and the whole statement has more to do with monopolising the market, again, ruthless businessman NOT creative genius...

Ahh, so I can see that you didn’t read too far into this little statement. If he kept the same guys in the Main Event with the same exact rivalries, promos, matches, endings, outcomes, etc. each time THEN it would be uncreative. However, Vince McMahon and his writing staff are obviously creative enough to take a seemingly uncreative aspect and make it work. If as many people that complain about Vince just stopped watching in lieu of TNA or ROH, then WWE wouldn’t be monopolizing the market. Vince McMahon knows the perfect balance; he knows where the line is between creative and uncreative and he is sure not to cross it.

Originally Posted by Turley

It doesnt seem to me that you have described a creative genius here.... You have described an egotist with a hell of a lot of money and a monopoly on a market. There is not an original thing there. Heck, his on screen character, perhaps his greatest achievment has parts stolen from Bischoff, Jack Tunney and Cornette and a host of other on screen authority figures that are there to bait the baby faces.

Once again, I was giving insight to allow the reader to know the character in question. Yes, McMahon is an egotist. And he has every right to be, especially after all of the strides he has made in professional wrestling. And yes, he does have a monopoly on the market. But not because he hasn’t earned it. He has worked his ass off for 25-30 years to eliminate the competition and put together some of the strongest rosters in terms of quality and star power as well as mesh together the greatest feuds, matches, and promos possible. THIS…is what has earned him the right of being able to say that he has single handedly monopolized one of the most competitive and prospering businesses in the entire world.

Vince McMahon = Creative Genius.

Originally Posted by Turley

Stealing talent was not stealing ideas, but there most certainly was nothing creative about it. Vince is an ideas thief because he regularly claims credit for other peoples ideas. Think about it for a second.... He has creative teams that nut out the majority of the gimmicks and angles. Vince then comes along and chooses the ones he wants. This process means that Vince is an ideas thief.

Well of course he has creative teams that help. He is one man that has far more to do. He picks out those angle for a reason; they are the best to him and most likely, they are soon-to-be smash hits. Vince McMahon has a very sharp eye for those kind of things. He hired the staff to do his bidding, so in these terms, what they do is his work. It’s his business and they are his staff. And so the final outcome will technically be something that he put together, because without him, they would’ve never been assembled in the first place. And therefore, McMahon deserves credit for all of the angles concocted by his writing staff.

Originally Posted by Turley

Katie Vick, who killed Vince, Vince vs God, incest.... Real quality VKM originals right there.

1. The Katie Vick angle served its purpose; it made Triple H vs. Kane much more interesting and intense. Controversial? Yes. But it was a creative way to put the feud over, especially with one character that wasn’t much of a conversationalist. Plus, Triple H was used to his potential in this one, something that Vince McMahon was probably behind.
   
2. Who killed Vince lasted 1 week due to the tragic death of Chris Benoit. So it is unfair to truthfully say if that angle was going to be creative or not, seeing as nobody except the writing and booking staffs truly knows what was going to happen.
   
3. Vince vs. God was another very controversial, yet effective angle. Just like Katie Vick, it served its purpose. Shawn Michaels was a new man of the Christian faith. The McMahon’s were trying to break him. Bring “God” into the equation and BAM! Mega heat and a rivalry ten times as intense as before. Creative? I can’t particularly recall anybody who ever used “God” in this way. I would say that creativity here is a plus.
   
4. Paul Burchill and Katie Lea? Yes, it was discussed and planned, but that angle never really launched. And therefore, it is irrelevant.

Moving on…

Originally Posted by Turley

Vince didnt create Stone Cold Steve Austin..... he stole the idea from the fans. Austins semi shoot promo after the King of The Ring laid the foundation for this. Austin uttered the 3:16 phrase and the next night on raw the signs were everywhere in the crowd. Vince then stole this idea and turned it into arguably his biggest money earner.

DX was derived/stolen from the NWO concept.
Vince has repeatedly stolen the idea of USA are good, everyone else is bad...

I’m sorry, but what are your sources on ANY of these. To be honest, you sound like a disgruntled ex-booker for Vince who is just trying to get back at him with rather biased opinions.

I have never ONCE read anything stating that Vince stole the “Austin 3:16” gimmick from the fans, especially since Austin had said it prior to the signs and everything. The real issue here is whether Austin came up with this speech himself or if Vince and his writers did. And considering I didn’t even bring this aspect up, I have no idea. But either way, Vince capitalized on it and made one of the biggest sports entertainment icons ever out of it. The creative part, I’m not totally sure. I don’t know if it was Austin’s spawn of Vince and his staff’s. However, what became of this is nothing short of sheer genius.

DX ripped off of NWO? Just because there are two stables that were spawned around the same time-span doesn’t necessarily mean that one was a rip-off of the other.

NWO contained an uprising of approximately 50 members altogether and it soon grew too large to control and was one of the reasons for WCW’s downfall. Eric Bischoff had meant for the NWO to be an invasion-type stable with former WWF wrestlers and use propaganda and ridiculous, yet slightly entertaining, campain-esque commercials.

Meanwhile, De-Generation X were simply rebels. They weren’t trying to overthrow management, like NWO had been trying to do. They didn’t consist of obscene amounts of wrestlers; DX has always had 2-7 members I believe. Different goals, different attitudes, different characters and personalities, different methods, different everything. There are only two similarities that I can see; they were both concocted during the “Attitude Era” time and they’re both stables. Besides that, I can’t see how DX can possibly be an NWO rip-off.

Vince stole the idea of USA > other countries? From who? Aren’t we living in America? Isn’t that where WWE’s headquarters and main audience is? Patriotism is a good thing. The American fans all love a classic feud with the USA wrestler going over the foreign wrestler. It’s not an idea stolen from anybody, albeit not being the most creative way to go about things. But how often are these even seen anymore? There are plenty of thriving foreign wrestlers, both face and heel. Sheamus, Yoshi Tatsu, Vladimir Kozlov, The Great Khali, Finlay, Drew McIntyre…the list can go on. This idea has been generally dropped, even though the occasional foreign wrestler will get a “USA!” chant during their promos. But still, this idea has no definite starting point. Who can honestly say that they created patriotism? Nobody. Vince McMahon just capitalizes on something loved and supported by many. He does not “steal” the idea of patriotism.

Originally Posted by Turley

Wow... This angle was NOT over huge. Infact I am staggered you brought itup at all. The common consensus is that this is the most butchered angle in wrestling history. If Vince was a "creative" genius then he wouldnt have buried certain individuals due to personal grudges.... All this saga proved was that Vince had money and a a ruthless streak. Nothing creative and nothing to do with being an ideas thief.... Pretty irrelevant to the debate really.

Just because nothing ever pleases the smarks does not mean that this angle was not highly anticipated and watched during the time that it was happening. This angle lasted about 8 months with victories jumping back-and-forth between the Alliance and WWF. Vince McMahon did not simply “bury” the talent. And McMahon did not simply decide to kill off WCW talent. At the time, they only had 2 shows; RAW and Smackdown! They didn’t have room for such a large influx of talent on the rosters. And therefore, Vince had to find a way to use the talents to their fullest and decide who to keep and who to cut. Thus, the Invasion angle was created. This long process saw WWF become victorious – well of course! The show was WWF! Why would they lose to the outsiders? That’s why it is so critically ashamed. People wanted a genuine war, but Vince couldn’t belittle his own talent that he had worked so hard to develop by making them lose to the wrestlers from the former competition. It was a genius move by Vince McMahon that sent the message loud and clear – “The WWF is better than every other promotion out there.” That is why TNA isn’t going anywhere right now. That is why ROH, after 7 years, has just recently gotten onto television. This monopoly of which you speak…it came from this angle. Regardless of what the critics may say, this angle was done ingeniously by Vince McMahon for the greater good of his brainchild. And, in retrospect, isn’t that what’s most important? Isn’t that what should come first and be the primary concern? Vince McMahon utilized his genius in a very creative way. He could’ve just fired the people that he didn’t want and avoid the highly anticipated angle as a whole. That would’ve been the simpler road. But Vince didn’t do that and his promotion prospered because of that.

Originally Posted by Turley

Entertaining us with a show written by other people. The fact that you are now giving Vince the credit for all these ideas shows that he is an ideas thief. There is never any recognition or credits at the end of the show for the WRITERS, He pays a lot of money for other people to come up with these ideas. It is absurd that he should then be labelled a creative genius.

Yes, he pays others to work for him. He finds the best of the best at writing, booking, production, and everything else to work for him and the product is a highly successful and entertaining franchise. An idea’s thief would be if Vince McMahon had told people during the WCW vs. WWF days that he came up with the idea to form the NWO. An idea’s thief would be if Vince McMahon said that he was the reason for RVD’s highly acclaimed 21-month ECW TV Title run. An idea’s thief would be in Vince McMahon took credit for a show or product that he had absolutely nothing to do with. That is not the case. Vince McMahon pays these people that he finds to come up with the best possibly storylines, angles, and feuds as they possibly can. And when they do, he picks the best of the best and they become a reality. Why shouldn’t he get credit for this? Why shouldn’t he get credit for creating stars when he’s the one who finds them and signs them to contracts? Why shouldn’t he get credit for a show that is under his name and technically, has everything lead right back to him as the originator? If Vince McMahon really had nothing to do with final product, then there wouldn’t BE a final product. There wouldn’t be a staff. Hell, there probably wouldn’t even be a WWE right now. That is how important his creative genius truly is.

Vince McMahon is a creative genius personified. He is the sole reason for the WWE being where it’s at right now. He has made the biggest risks to get there, from leaving the NWA when he gained control of the federation to syndicating WWF across America via video tapes and broadcasting to robbing other promotions of their talents to moving out of the “territory” mindset and setting a nationwide course for the WWF. At the time that he did all of this, it was unheard of in the wrestling world. They were all milestones in wrestling and gravely feared by the competition. Vince McMahon almost went bankrupt and destroyed the WWF entity trying to pursue his prospect of a dominant wrestling consortium. But then, Vince McMahon’s most successful endeavor to date…Wrestlemania (his very own idea, thank you)…had saved him and thus, the new wave of wrestling had begun. Vince McMahon was more than just an innovator. He was more than just the chairman of the board. He was more than what most fans give him credit for. Vince McMahon never was, isn’t, and never will be an idea’s thief. Vince McMahon was, is, and will always be…a creative genius.

Thank you for reading. Good luck, Turley.

[Turley]

Originally Posted by RKO93

But where is the creativity in this. A business genius.... possibly. There simply is no argument for creativity here. You admit that Vince may not have come up with the idea for the gimmick, so you are pretty much making your own argument for creativity null and void. We could go round in circles like this all day, but the fact of the matter is that Vince's genius comes into things well after the creative process. Other people are creative, he steals the ideas and makes the money. A genius, definitely.... Creative? no way.

Yes, you used a word that is similar to creative.... A sign? No....
You see, you have also mentioned the reason why Vince McMahon is an ideas thief and not a creative genius.... "hiring the quintessential crew". He is putting his name on the work that he has spent his life paying other people to do for him.

Dont get me wrong here. I am not trying to sell Vince short in his accomplishments. They were brutal business techniques no matter how you sugar coat it. It simply has nothing to do with creativity. There was a degree of genius involved in what he did, but the debate is not about proving that Vince is a genius. It is about proving his creativity. What he did was not creative. This sort of thing has been done in all walks of life a thousand times before Vince did it. If a business buys other somilar businesses, then uses this ownership as a tool to get rid of competition, they are not creative. Same applies to poaching staff and employees from competition....
The WWE promotion machine made these guys megastars.... Nothing to do with Vince's creativity.

No no no no no!!!!! If the little burger joint down the road starts making awesome burgers, its not going to stop MacDonalds.... TNA and ROH are niche markets.... The casual fan is all WWE now because the market has been basically monopolised. Now Im not going to rattle off reasons as to how Monday Night Raw lacks creativity and originality. Instead I will just tell everyone to look at how few posts are made into the weekly Raw thread, and to look at the PPV buy rates.... Recycling the same old feuds is not creative, and still being the number one promotion in no way proves that it is.

I am staggered that you wrote this paragraph. I couldnt have come up with a better argument as to why Vince is an ideas thief. You have clearly stated my side of the argument here and I thank you for this.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Religious vilification is in now way creative. This Angle bombed out completely. Not even Shawn Michaels was able to save this from being nothing short of disgusting and tasteless...

The fact that it had been tried before with the Beaver Cleavage angle does show that Vince lacks creativity.....


I’m sorry, but what are your sources on ANY of these. To be honest, you sound like a disgruntled ex-booker for Vince who is just trying to get back at him with rather biased opinions.

Haha.... Monday Night Wars dvd.... amongst a magnitude of articles, journals and shoot interviews.... Vince had no idea that Austin was even going to say "Austin 3:16" he just stole the idea after the fact and laughed all the way to the bank....

Sorry bud, I am not from American and am like people from the rest of the world.... Be it a war movie, a comic book or a wrestling angle.... I simply roll my eyes and groan when we see the America are good, rest of the world are bad routine.... It completely lacks creativity and insults the intelligence of the rest of the world....

At the end of this debate, there simply is nothing that has been brought up that shows Vince is a creative genius. He takes other peoples ideas and cashes in on them. Then he recycles them and cashes in again..... A genius? yeah probably..... Creative? no chance in hell.....

[Goldenboy79]

Thats a wrap.... best of luck guys